Drum58 - Posted - 05/27/2013:  12:04:43

I have only been playing Bluegrass for a little over a year, but I am puzzled by the absolute disdain, bordering on hatred, which most Bluegrass musicians heap upon Old Crow Medicine Show and The SteelDrivers.  I have been in jams where half the musicians get up and walk away if someone starts "Wagon Wheel" or anything else by Old Crow or "Good Corn Liquor" or anything else by The SteelDrivers.  I heard one guy mutter "I wouldn't walk across the street to hear The SteelDrivers.  Now, lest you think I am playing in Old Time jams, that is not the case.  We play tunes by Bob Dylan, Utah Phillips, Joan Baez, John Hartford, The Byrds, The Mamas and the Papas, hell, even The Grateful Dead.   Granted, the musicians rarely know the origin of the songs they play by these artists.  If I say "That's a good old Bob Dylan tune,(or a good Grateful dead tune, or whatever)", they'll look at me quizzically and say 'No, that's a (fill in the bluegrass band/artist here) song"  Often with a different name fro the song, "Rockin' Chair" instead of "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" for instance.  But, they seem to have a particular disdain for Old Crow and The Steeldrivers, both of which I think are great bands with some great songs.  What's the deal?  I don't want to be embarrassed at a jam by rolling out the wrong song when it comes around to me.

oogaboogachief - Posted - 05/27/2013:  12:54:10

Play what you like if it is your turn, I hear Wagon Wheel all the time and I hear Sticks that make Thunder a lot too,

DaddyJ - Posted - 05/27/2013:  18:31:22

We attend a couple bluegrass jams and the only outright hatred I've witnessed was for Jerusalem Ridge, because nobody seems to know exactly how to play it.  It's what you call a jambuster, and I do know of a guy who will get up and go to the bar whenever it's played, complaining loudly all the while, but he's a regular and no one pays him much mind.  I hear Wagon Wheel on a fairly regular basis, everyone seems to love it.  Not familiar enough with the Steeldrivers to know whether I've heard their stuff or not.

Every jam has its own personality, and if you want to fit in it's wise to sort of take the temperature of the group for a while before taking part.  We attend one jam that skews more traditional, lots of gospel and old time fiddle tunes (Red Haired Boy and Gold Rush are ok, Big Sciota and Beaumont Rag are not, and yes we learned that the hard way).  The other jam we attend is more modern, and you'll hear John Denver, Michael Martin Murphy, and Seldom Scene along with the occasional Bill Monroe tune, and they can keep up with pretty much whatever you throw at them.  The first is a circle jam, the second is a real bluegrass jam, and it is fuuun.

oldtimestrings - Posted - 05/27/2013:  19:11:59

Personally I hate "Wagon Wheel" because a) it's not the kind of song I want to play at a jam, b) everybody seems to think that it's an opportunity to play as slow and loud as possible, c) it lasts forever, and d) I'm just plain sick of it. At a bluegrass jam it's also pretty much outside of the normal stylistic orbit as it's simply not a bluegrass song. I don't care for the Old Crow Medicine Show generally, but my reasons for disliking "Wagon Wheel" have more to do with the way that song is treated at jams.

I love the Steeldrivers, but have encountered their material very infrequently at jams. "If It Hadn't Been for Love" is about it, and that maybe twice in five years. I've not experienced any of the hatred you cited with regard to The Steeldrivers, and a I go to a lot of bluegrass jams.

Regarding DaddyJ's comments, I'm really surprised to hear about hatred for "Jerusalem Ridge." Yes, the form is tricky, but it's not that hard and any decent fiddler, mandolinist, or guitarist who calls himself/herself a bluegrass picker ought to know how to navigate it. It's one of Bill Monroe's most famous tunes, after all. I'm also surprised to hear that "Big Sciota" is frowned upon in a more "traditional" jam (by which I suume you mean festival-style old time). It's become a standard bluegrass instrumental and a great vehicle for improvisation, but it's also one of those tunes that has real OT cred. Some of the old-timers played without any minor chords in the B section, BTW.

coelhoe - Posted - 05/28/2013:  09:18:37

It is an interesting problem, and one that has been around a long time. The more sophisticated you become musically, the less time will you want to spend playing three-chord rhythm. One solution is to try to move to other lead instruments, often mandolin, which has several overlaps with guitar technique.  Still, you will find fewer and fewer jammers who  will come up to your level,

Another solution, of course, is to move to a different genre altogether, western swing for example, which has a lot of commonality with bluegrass repertoire and style but is much more complex musically.

When the New Grass Revival albums first arrived in the early 70's, I learned most of the songs, but there were very few at jams in those days who had the technique.

I lived near Beanblossum back then, and at the festival there were many jammers who liked the tunes but simply did not have the skills to play them. 

I don't play much BG these days and instead of Tony Rice I listen more to Eldon Shamblin or Redd Volker.

I do play "Wagon Wheel" with one group, but the words made little sense in my part of the country, so we just rewrote most of it and changed the arrangement as well, but it is no longer acoustic (if it ever was). 

DaddyJ - Posted - 05/28/2013:  09:47:33

See, I live in Southwest Virginia about 45 minutes from Roanoke, so the words fit perfectly. Maybe that's one reason it's so popular around here. That, and it's a great song...

JamminDave - Posted - 05/28/2013:  10:13:01

Where can I get the music ( written or recorded) so I can see or hear or both what the big deal is.

Drum58 - Posted - 05/28/2013:  10:51:37

Here are links to both songs: 

youtube.com/watch?v=vLK55ShcTe...sp;  The SteelDrivers "Good Corn Liquor"

 

youtube.com/watch?v=1gX1EP6mG-E  Old Crow Medicine Show "Wagon Wheel"

DaddyJ - Posted - 05/28/2013:  11:42:34

oogaboogachief - Posted - 05/28/2013:  20:39:00

I hear ww all the time at Winfield. Fun sing a long and picker friendly.

Jim Yates - Posted - 05/29/2013:  10:02:07

First time I've heard Wagon Wheel.  I like it. 

I like a lot of tunes from different genres played in the Bluegrass (or old time) style.

Country Gazette did a great job of Elton John's Honkey Cat

I liked The Dillard's version of the Beatles' I've Just Seen A Face.

The Country Gents (the original newgrass band) version of Manfred Mann's Fox On The Run became a bluegrass classic.

Mike Seeger, John Hartford and David Grisman did a fine job of Big Mama Thorton's (later Elvis Presley's) Hound Dog. 

They fixed the grammar errors and sang, "You are nothing but a hound dog.  You have never caught a rabbit and you are no friend of mine."

The bonus track on the CD has the bad grammar version.

There have been some good bluegrass versions of Libba Cotton's Freight Train too, and Bob Wills' Stay All Night.

I've heard some great bluegrass versions of Sweet Georgia Brown and even Over The Rainbow.

oldtimestrings - Posted - 05/29/2013:  10:58:45

This thread is diverging into a discussion of non-bluegrass songs being done in bluegrass style, whether by professional bands or at jams. Interesting topic, but it's somewhat different from the original point. Speaking for myself, my personal objection to Wagon Wheel is not that it's not an "authentic" bluegrass or old-time tune. I'm fine doing songs by Dylan, John Prine, The Beatles, whatever. I just don't like Wagon Wheel, and I'm sick of it to boot.

DaddyJ - Posted - 05/29/2013:  11:03:18

I was talking to my brother in law once and I had just learned “Ramblin’ Man” by the Allman Bros. He said, I hate that song. I couldn’t understand why. I mean I can understand not liking it, but hate? He said, because I’ve heard it a million times on the radio and I’m sick of it. I said, well that’s what you get for listening to the @#$% radio. I’ve heard it as many times as I’ve wanted to hear it, and not one time more.

Jim, I recently heard a killer version of Over the Rainbow at a local jam. The banjo player picked it. It was great.

Drum58 - Posted - 05/29/2013:  11:14:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Yates

 

First time I've heard Wagon Wheel.  I like it. 

I like a lot of tunes from different genres played in the Bluegrass (or old time) style.

Country Gazette did a great job of Elton John's Honkey Cat

I liked The Dillard's version of the Beatles' I've Just Seen A Face.

The Country Gents (the original newgrass band) version of Manfred Mann's Fox On The Run became a bluegrass classic.

Mike Seeger, John Hartford and David Grisman did a fine job of Big Mama Thorton's (later Elvis Presley's) Hound Dog. 

They fixed the grammar errors and sang, "You are nothing but a hound dog.  You have never caught a rabbit and you are no friend of mine."

The bonus track on the CD has the bad grammar version.

There have been some good bluegrass versions of Libba Cotton's Freight Train too, and Bob Wills' Stay All Night.

I've heard some great bluegrass versions of Sweet Georgia Brown and even Over The Rainbow

My point exactly.  In fact, I hear a lot of songs from other genres played in the bluegrass style at festivals and jams.  Again, I think that the reason these songs pass muster is because many bluegrass musicians aren't aware of the song's origins in another genre.  If they knew that the song came from some long haired hippie or rock band, they probably wouldn't play it either.  There are many country, folk, blues, and even pop songs that sound great played in the bluegrass style.

I hate to say it, but I have experienced a fair amount of snobbishness in the bluegrass community.  Just like they frown on Old Crow Medicine Show, they frown on any guitar that isn't made by Martin or any mandolin that isn't made by Gibson.  As I said, I have only been playing bluegrass for a little over a year, but before that, I have played in numerous southern rock, classic rock, blues, country, and acoustic bands.  One thing I learned playing in bars and cafes and festivals was to give the crowd some of what they wanted.  Make every fourth or fifth tune something they recognize and they'll love you.  If that means playing "Melissa" or "Sweet Home Alabama" in every gig, so be it.  The bluegrass band I play in absolutely refuses to play "Wagon Wheel", "Rocky Top", "Salty Dog" or "Foggy Mountain Breakdown."  What do people request every time we play out?  "Wagon Wheel", "Rocky Top", Salty Dog" and "Foggy Mountain Breakdown".  I don't get the snobbishness or exclusiveness thing.

That being said, I have found a home playing bluegrass music.  I have met some really nice people and learned a ton of new songs.  One thing I love about bluegrass is the number of absolutely fantastic musicians and singers I get to play with. Another thing is that these cats love to play....they'll play all night!  Twice this month, after a paid gig was over, we went somewhere else and picked until the wee hours of the morning.  I love that.  I am sticking with my band and with bluegrass.  I will just pick my guitar and my mandolin and sing the songs they want me to sing and keep my opinions to myself.  As they say in bluegrass, "Shut-Up and Pick".

pizmo - Posted - 05/29/2013:  11:34:06

Yes Jim, your right in that there has been a lot of Bluegrass come out of minstrel, country and western, tin pan alley, western swing, pop, etc. etc. in addition to it's main source of  Appalachian traditional. Of course we all know that came from Irish and Scottish folk with the basic melodies reliance on fiddle and bagpipe with a some black slave music thrown into the mix.  Where I think the problem lies is more in the chord challenge of a particular song. If there are too many chords in a song, it is thought by many that it can't be bluegrass because that in itself is straying to far from the roots of the genre. Personally, after the fifth song in a row at a jam session in the three chord wonder mode ( wonder when it's going to be over), I'm bored. Others love it this way and I really can't find fault with that. Everyone's need and love for music is different.

In regards to this thread, I like the songs. Are they great? I've heard better, but I've heard a lot worse and I wouldn't mind jamming to them. But as coelhoe suggested, look up Redd Volkeart on u-tube and listened to Old San Antone. It will knock all of your socks off. Both he and the gal steel player are fabulous. Thanks for the tip coelhoe.

coelhoe - Posted - 05/29/2013:  18:32:19

Yep!  Redd Volker with Cindy Cashdollar on steel.   Some others to listen to are Ray Flack, Danny Gatton, James Burton, or the impossible Albert Lee.  Ricky Skaggs is no slouch as a guitar either, neither is Vince Gill, or Jerry Reed (for finger style) or the truly wonderful Hank Garland.

"There are more good pickers on earth, Horatio,  than are ever dreamed of in your philosophy."   Or, something like that.

pizmo - Posted - 05/30/2013:  03:41:51

Yes, we all bring certain music bias's to the table. One that I bring with certain songs is "Wildwood Flower".  Even though it led to a picking revolution and I use that style at times, when it's called for at a jam,  I get up and get a soft drink (or beer if available). As to how a genre should be done, one of my bias's is "if it ain't got  a steel, it ain't country"!  But that's what is great about music. So many alternatives to choose from and we as a whole have chosen an instrument that  offers the versatility to do so much with music. So good pickin' to all.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 05/30/2013:  04:58:46

Well , we all play because we love to play. I mean really if it wasn't something that meant so much to each of us we would spend the time and money on something else. However when we take a third party's money to "play" we are at work not on our own nickels so playing what the boss wants, ie. the audience is paramount. I know it's not the money we are playing for , it's the music, and with the pittance of the remittance it feels like if we aren't playing what we want then why bother. But if we didn't want an audience why are we there? I have songs I have played soooo many times I really don't care if I ever play them again. But those are often the songs an audience wants to hear. Something they know done loosely is often preferable to something unknown and tight. As a musician I say go figure. But as the purveyor of a product I have to say OK let's play Rocky Top for table twelve. And I will always hate blenders buuuuuut I do like to play out. So that's the fly in the honey. Do I throw out the whole thing or just a tablespoon or two.
As for purists , well I get it, and there is a place for that and them. Some folks do get a little hard to listen to though I'll agree. But I thoroughly enjoy playing Blue Grass , Bluegrass and Newgrass Swing Western or otherwise and anything else I can get a handle on. Within the acoustic community anyway. The simplicity of a I IV V melody has a purity that can be sweet adding a VIm can change it to a haunting sadness. II chords give a junp to any melody. All found in Blue Grass, Bluegrass, Newgrass , etc. When I join a jam, or a band for that matter. I plan on playing what ever makes " the main man happy" , blending in as seamlessly as I am able, and having fun. When I get pointed at for a break I play em' what I've got. If it stops being fun I know where I came in. After all I came to play. R/

Jim Yates - Posted - 05/30/2013:  07:45:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by pizmo

 

Yes, we all bring certain music bias's to the table. One that I bring with certain songs is "Wildwood Flower".  Even though it led to a picking revolution and I use that style at times, when it's called for at a jam,  I get up and get a soft drink (or beer if available). As to how a genre should be done, one of my bias's is "if it ain't got  a steel, it ain't country"!  But that's what is great about music. So many alternatives to choose from and we as a whole have chosen an instrument that  offers the versatility to do so much with music. So good pickin' to all.

---

This was the first song that I, and probably many of the members of this forum, learned to pick.  I first learned it Carter style, where the thumb plays the melody and the finger(s) strum the chords.  When I started to learn to use a flat pick in the early 60s, it seemed the natural song to try.  I also learned to finger pick using this tune and learned a banjo roll style (on guitar) using the same tune.  My mother grew to hate this song and I'm sure she couldn't wait till I learned a new song or moved out.  By the mid-sixties, I was pretty sick of it myself and thought of it as a cliche.

After having given it a rest for about 45 years, I've joined a band that plays Wildwood flower and have grown to like it again.  The guitar player in this band does not play Carter style, but picks the tune in a single note embellished flat pick style that sounds great.  I am the mandolin player in this band and am having fun after a long hiatus from bluegrass.  I am still involved with a couple of non-bluegrass projects,but this is something I've missed.

This reminds me of a song that I learned from the singing of David Holt (who learned it from Cisco Houston) about learning to play the guitar.  It's a talkin' blues with the last two verses that go:

Dad, he took it a different way.

He said,"Son, you turned your mom's hair grey

And drove your sister away from home

Now you or I has got to roam

And I ain't leavin'...So you figger it out"...It didn't take long.

Fact the very next day my bags were packed

I threw my guitar across my back

And caught the end of a long freight train

To search the world for my share of fame

I haven't found much o' that yet...One thing I have learned...You don't have to be crazy to pick a guitar...but it helps...

Look at UsuallyPickin...or pizmo...or coelhoe...or drum58...or daddyj...or oldtimestrings...or...

 

Edited by - Jim Yates on 05/30/2013 07:50:54

slowhand - Posted - 05/30/2013:  10:27:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drum58

 

I have only been playing Bluegrass for a little over a year, but I am puzzled by the absolute disdain, bordering on hatred, which most Bluegrass musicians heap upon Old Crow Medicine Show and The SteelDrivers.  I have been in jams where half the musicians get up and walk away if someone

---

I think instead of saying "most Bluegrass musicians" it would be more accurate for you to say "some of the Bluegrass musicians I've encountered."

DaddyJ - Posted - 06/19/2013:  08:41:34

Here's another version of Wagon Wheel for those of you that don’t hate it.  This is Gravel Road, my son Nick’s bluegrass band, performing it this weekend.  This was their first “big” show and I think they knocked it out of the park.  The kids range in age from 10-13 and have only been together a few months.  There was a little mistake on this one – the singer forgot to come back in after Nick’s guitar solo.  I think they covered it pretty well.  You might also notice they changed a few of the words…

youtu.be/rmRJZHz7tjk?t=34m54s

P.S. I didn't embed this because it would embed the whole video and I wanted it to go straight to WW.

oogaboogachief - Posted - 06/19/2013:  08:52:10

Nice work boys and girls!!

tonyelder - Posted - 06/25/2013:  14:54:36

I agree with slowhand. There are still plenty of people who like one or both of your groups mentioned. We play a Steel Drivers song - and folks like it.

The lack of interest is probably found more among musicians than the listening public.

Edited by - tonyelder on 06/25/2013 15:02:17

Jim Yates - Posted - 06/25/2013:  19:57:17

The original Wagon Wheel was called Rock Me Mama and was written by Bob Dylan for a movie sound track, but never used in the movie.  Two takes were recorded and released on a bootleg tape, but Bob mumbled the verses and only the chorus, the "Rock me Mama like..." part was fully audible.  Apparently one of The Old Crow members heard it, liked it and made up his own words for the verses.

There was an artist named Curtis Jones who recorded a song Roll Me Baby Like A Wagon Wheel in 1939.  A different song, but an indication of how hard it is to be original.

Edited by - Jim Yates on 06/25/2013 20:12:27

DaddyJ - Posted - 06/25/2013:  20:13:31

Jim, I've heard that before but never heard Dylan's original version.  Well, guess what I just found.  Pretty cool.

mrbook - Posted - 08/11/2013:  17:09:19

I haven't played Wagon Wheel often enough to dislike it yet. However, at one of our recent gigs my daughter brought a friend who requested it, and our guitar player blurted out that it "put hum in a homicidal rage." He is the youngest in the band (we share the same birthday, and he just turned 26 while I turned 61), but after the show the bass player and I explained to him that when a pretty girt requests a song you should play it (even I knew that at his age). Whatever you think of the song, it has an easy chord progression that people who haven't played together should be able to follow. Audiences seem to like it, too.

GalenB - Posted - 08/12/2013:  07:45:39

Wagon Wheel has that "pop formula" that the public loves. Until I quit playing in a cover band (playing rock and some country) a couple years ago, I used to do Wagon Wheel to call the guys back to stage after a break and when there was a nice crowd. I'd start it out, just me on acoustic, there'd be some hoots and hollers as people recognized it. One by one the guys would come back on stage and join in, and the audience would sing along. People, young and old, tend to like it and I'd always end up talking with someone later about OCMS and music, and passing out band business cards with names written on the back of other acts and songs to check out in the acoustic world, based on their tastes I though they might like.

I was reading an article in Bluegrass Unlimited from July 2012 this morning where James Allen Shelton was saying something he learned from Ralph Stanley about playing for the audience/fans and not for the other musicians. That's a pretty easy thing to forget.

ryankimm - Posted - 12/02/2013:  15:37:20

That's to bad you experienced that. Music is music and should be treated as such. I get that Wagon Wheel has been played a thousand times and some people might be sick of it. Old Crow Medicine show is a huge reason I got into playing bluegrass and old-time music. I think they have a very old-time sound. Did they cross-over, yes of course but they were a huge influence on me. The steel drivers are crossing over bluegrass into blues and a little rock I feel. Either way if its good music it's good music.

With that being said you may need to understand the type of jam your at and who your playing with. Then curve your choices based on that. Some jams are straight old-time and others straight trad bluegrass. That may be the only kind of tunes they are looking to play so just go with the flow. Learn something form that. Then look for the jams that involve a bigger genre and start playing at those. I personally think both those bands are great and a big reason bluegrass and old-time music is making a surge but that's just me.

JimInAlabama - Posted - 05/13/2014:  09:34:47

I may as well add my dos centavos ...... I'm a 65 year old blue grasser who gets cited often by the Bluegrass Police (Monroe Mafia, whatever ya wanna call em). The Steeldrivers are one of my favorite current groups. I like some of Old Crow's stuff, not all, but I'll play it in a jam with anybody. I remember when Alison Krauss came on the scene and excited everyone with her exceptional talent sitting in with Tony and Ricky. Then she started doing that wonderful original stuff and was labeled blasphemous!! If you're in a group that plays only old traditional tunes exactly the way they were played on the original recordings just because that's the way they're s'posed to be.  The hard core BG traditionalists are not gonna change and I'm ok with that, in their minds' these new groups are not Bluegrass.  I respect 'em, I just try not to sit in jams with 'em very long!    ...... find a new jam, there are a lot of folks who like the "new" old timey sound!!

Edited by - JimInAlabama on 05/13/2014 09:43:19