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delboy - Posted - 01/24/2011: 01:02:53
I've been playing a long time - some 35 years - and would describe myself as a fairly middling intermediate player. There are all sorts of weaknesses in my playing - all of which I'm attempting to put right through things such as transcribing, active listening, more varied listening, working through DVDs and books, taking lessons, targting techniques etc etc etc But there's one thing that I struggle with and don't hear anybody talking about in books or DVDs and that's how to cultivate that lightness of touch that every player but I seems to possess! 
(I guess that why it's not addressed - I'm the only one who suffers...).
When I play it always feels like my fingers are slow and sticky and heavy and each note has to be forced and squeezed out of the guitar. Others seems to dance over the fingerboard. It happens irrespective of guitar. I can play fairly fast so it's not a show-stopper or anything, but I wonder how much better I could be were my touch lighter.
But, I still like that big tone, that attack that people like Sutton and Rice get, so it's not a case of being lighter with the right hand, of using less pick or anything. It's something in the left hand, maybe I'm pressing the strings too hard, or holding them down too long. I can't even describe the issue properly.
Is it just me?
Derek
rookie_davis - Posted - 01/24/2011: 04:25:51
That lightness you are talking about is hard to achieve, and it is a right hand issue as well. Sutton's right hand is always (or seems to be) loose and totally relaxed. He's discovered how to use the natural weight of his right arm to help him achieve a big tone without "digging in" or using a whole lot of muscle. For the left hand, you might consider the placement of your thumb. "Proper" left hand position will allow you to play with a reasonably light touch and still have fluidity and power. Take it slow on your instrument. Find a playing position that allows you to relax fully FIRST, then figure out how to control it. The way I did this is to find the posture first, by relaxing. It was a little sloppy at first, but once I was totally relaxed I could go about the process of developing speed and control. Patience must be your best friend at every turn. High level playing requires high level problem solving and a lot of patience.
delboy - Posted - 01/24/2011: 07:24:39
Cheers Rookie. For sure, the older I get the harder it is to make those small changes. Patience is indeed a virtue.
rodman - Posted - 01/24/2011: 10:52:22
I know the feeling . I didn't realize how heavy handed I was until I got a guitar with tall frets. If I clamp down too hard it sounds out of tune . I had to learn to lighten up in a hurry , I even had to back way off on capo tension . Rodman
Edited by - rodman on 01/24/2011 10:53:38
robatsu - Posted - 01/25/2011: 00:50:07
Well, I don't know about Sutton, but Tony Rice doesn't play very loudly - you have to keep in mind everything you've heard of him is miked/recorded. Actually, you'd probably be surprised at how softly most fast/accomplished pickers play. Doc Watson is on record as saying that he wouldn't have developed his style if he hadn't been figuring it out on a Telecaster (you do know that when he was "discovered" he didn't even own an acoustic).
Point is, to learn to play fast, you have to be able to play softly just to get your hand moving fluidly and gliding over the strings. Sometimes, try playing as if there is someone in the room you don't want to wake up.
Edited by - robatsu on 01/25/2011 01:30:10
bfloyd6969 - Posted - 01/25/2011: 05:00:01
quote:
Originally posted by robatsu
Well, I don't know about Sutton, but Tony Rice doesn't play very loudly - you have to keep in mind everything you've heard of him is miked/recorded. Actually, you'd probably be surprised at how softly most fast/accomplished pickers play. Doc Watson is on record as saying that he wouldn't have developed his style if he hadn't been figuring it out on a Telecaster (you do know that when he was "discovered" he didn't even own an acoustic).
Point is, to learn to play fast, you have to be able to play softly just to get your hand moving fluidly and gliding over the strings. Sometimes, try playing as if there is someone in the room you don't want to wake up.
I can concur with this. I find that I usually play my best and most fluent when I am playing first thing in the morning (around 5 am) and the rest of the family is still sleeping. The house is dead quiet and I can everything perfectly. I play with a very light touch and things just flow better.
SLKmartin - Posted - 01/26/2011: 09:54:17
Terrence Z, Sean Ray : both play lightly no push at all and so beautifully done.. These guys are on this site. and sean has some videos ...........................Steve .
Edited by - SLKmartin on 01/26/2011 22:48:50
DaddyJ - Posted - 01/26/2011: 10:02:57
quote:
Originally posted by robatsu
Well, I don't know about Sutton, but Tony Rice doesn't play very loudly - you have to keep in mind everything you've heard of him is miked/recorded. Actually, you'd probably be surprised at how softly most fast/accomplished pickers play. Doc Watson is on record as saying that he wouldn't have developed his style if he hadn't been figuring it out on a Telecaster (you do know that when he was "discovered" he didn't even own an acoustic).
Point is, to learn to play fast, you have to be able to play softly just to get your hand moving fluidly and gliding over the strings. Sometimes, try playing as if there is someone in the room you don't want to wake up.
That's why a lot of shredders like Yngwie Malmsteen have scalloped fretboards. They're not even pushing the strings all the way to the fretboard so they have to play with an incredibly light touch. Likewise, many electric blues players prefer super heavy strings because they're not looking for speed.
Anyone know what gauge strings Tony Rice uses?
rookie_davis - Posted - 01/26/2011: 10:15:12
I'm playing in an ensemble in school with Sierra Hull this semester (which is a real treat for me), and she plays with a very light touch. Bryan Sutton came with Hot Rize and did a workshop last semester, the band played on a completely unmic'd stage...rest assured, Sutton was LOUD.
tomm - Posted - 01/26/2011: 11:03:29
"lightness of touch" is one of those things that unless you have a REALLY good teacher that covers EVERYTHING you tend to not even think about until your advanced enough to realize one day.....oh crap, I have to loosen my overall grip but increase the strength, more importantly control the strength in my fingers or your ability to play fast but most important, fluidly will be greatly hampered. Volume comes from your pick hand. There is the same need for control of that hand and touch as well.
jwing - Posted - 01/26/2011: 14:31:42
quote:
Originally posted by DaddyJ
Anyone know what gauge strings Tony Rice uses?
D'Aquisto TR235 13-57 Tony Rice Artist Series Acoustic Guitar Strings
.013 .017 .026w .035 .045 .057
BTW- I tried 'em and what a RIPOFF! They don't make my guitar-playin' sound anything like Tony Rice.
Actually, they are good-sounding strings; nickel wound for long life and good flatpickin' tone. Made in USA. I'll buy them again. Still workin' on the light touch; these strings don't particularly aid that endeavor.
I have no clue how to play loud enough to be heard in a bluegrass combo
and maintain a touch light enough to be fast. The fact is, I've never heard anyone pull that off on guitar without the use of an amplifier.
The louder I pick, the harder I need to fret to get clean tone. Is there a technique flaw that I need to address?
robatsu - Posted - 01/27/2011: 08:38:41
quote:
I have no clue how to play loud enough to be heard in a bluegrass combo and maintain a touch light enough to be fast. The fact is, I've never heard anyone pull that off on guitar without the use of an amplifier.
That is pretty much your answer, i.e, it is nearly impossible to flatpick at speed at a volume that can compete with fiddles, banjos, etc. Some of the newest "banjo killing" acoustics seem louder than stuff available in the past, but, really, still no contest. I've got a Gibson AJ Luthier's Choice in Madagascar/Adirondack that is the loudest acoustic I've ever played and it still gets murdered in a jam.
This is why everyone (polite ones, anyhow) playing rhythm sort of mutes things when the guitar takes a break. Of course, that sort of blows too, because then you tend to loose the groove.
Funny thing about flatpicking is that everyone thinks of it as this traditional thing, but it really wasn't until people started playing amplified that it gained a lot of popularity. Doc Watson developed his technique on a Telecaster playing in a rockabiliy band so he could handle the occasional request for a fiddle tune. He didn't even own an acoustic guitar when he was "discovered".
Struggling for volume in unamplified jams is really the bane of the flatpicker - you loose all finesse and develop bad habits. I still take breaks and all, but in a jam, I sorta prefer to kick off the tune with flatpicking lead rather than come in midway and have the whole group have to subdue themselves.
jwing - Posted - 01/27/2011: 11:35:16
quote:
Originally posted by robatsu
This is why everyone (polite ones, anyhow) playing rhythm sort of mutes things when the guitar takes a break. Of course, that sort of blows too, because then you tend to loose the groove.
Struggling for volume in unamplified jams is really the bane of the flatpicker - you loose all finesse and develop bad habits. I still take breaks and all, but in a jam, I sorta prefer to kick off the tune with flatpicking lead rather than come in midway and have the whole group have to subdue themselves.
You've described my experience perfectly. I'm about to the point of giving up on flatpicking and concentrating on singing and driving the band with my rhythm guitar.
robatsu - Posted - 01/27/2011: 14:42:03
quote:
Originally posted by jwing
quote:
Originally posted by robatsu
This is why everyone (polite ones, anyhow) playing rhythm sort of mutes things when the guitar takes a break. Of course, that sort of blows too, because then you tend to loose the groove.
Struggling for volume in unamplified jams is really the bane of the flatpicker - you loose all finesse and develop bad habits. I still take breaks and all, but in a jam, I sorta prefer to kick off the tune with flatpicking lead rather than come in midway and have the whole group have to subdue themselves.
You've described my experience perfectly. I'm about to the point of giving up on flatpicking and concentrating on singing and driving the band with my rhythm guitar.
Well, I've been through the wringer on this deal over the years and have come to a number of conclusions about flatpicking:
1) You have to be better at lead than other instruments because when the guitar starts flatpicking, the rhythm section loses its backbone. So if you get a little lost, the tune has a much greater propensity to die than if the fiddler gets lost. And of course, you don't have the volume. But you really have to know where you are in a tune since you typically have less harmonic context than others do when you are hitting big fat chords on the guitar.
2) For unamplified jams, being able to play a few notes loudly is better than a bunch of inaudible notes.
3) Other than your living room, very quiet jams/venues, you need an amp for snazzy uptempo flatpicking that can be heard distinctly and on a level with other instruments.
4) Most other members of the group value your rhythm playing more than flatpicking. Flatpicking is optional but chords are required. Some OT and Celtic jams will actively disapprove of you flatpicking rather than beating out chords.
5) Same goes for playing single note lines in small jazz ensembles, chord melodies help out a lot, or at least playing octaves.
6) Be like Doc/Norm, don't be scared to throw in fill chords if you are playing solo or small ensemble. This adds a lot when playing unamplified.
7) As soon as you start struggling for volume, the game is over unless you are just playing quarter notes. But quarter notes can be ok.
8) Get the loudest guitar you can find. Tone/appointments/name brand and all is wonderful, but volume is what most flatpickers need the most.
9) Take short breaks on material you know cold. It is lots easier to keep up some volume for eight bars than 32.
10) Keep woodshedding for several years. Flatpicking uptempo 8th notes on an acoustic guitar that are clean, have sustain/dynamics/etc, is essentially a virtuoso level skill. Most people who attempt this never really get very good, as opposed to most people get ok with chords, or being able to knock out something on a fiddle. Flatpicking a guitar is an extreme proposition, again, most people never get good enough to be able to knock out melodies of fiddle tunes, much less wild variations, at full tempo.
11) If you're having to strain when you are playing, you're doing something wrong. Instead of trying to figure out how to press yourself harder, you need to be constantly examining technique to figure out how to make things easier - pick angle, how you hold your hand, etc. Put work into that instead of trying for a brute force solution of "trying harder". Your goal is to be able to play quickly while really being quite relaxed (see "woodshedding for years").
Edited by - robatsu on 01/27/2011 16:44:58
jwing - Posted - 01/27/2011: 15:52:47
quote:
Originally posted by robatsu
6) Be like Doc/Norm, don't be scared to throw in fill chords if you are playing solo or small ensemble. This adds a lot when playing unamplified.
Yep, I agree with all your points. Also, I only hear Doc or Norm play in quieter settings. For instance, Doc with another guitar or Norm with Nancy. I don't doubt there are exceptions, but this is what I've heard. So, as you say, their styles are more suited to solo or small ensemble. Doc and Norm also sing a lot.
BTW - Last summer, the Sam Bush Band guitarist , Steven Mougin, played into a mic, of course. But right before he started a break, he stomped on a pedal that boosted his amplification significantly. At the end of his breaks, he stomped again to bring the level down to proper rhythm guitar balance. He's a great guitar player and it doesn't hurt to have the Sam Bush Band for backup and professional soundboard guys tweakin' the knobs. Do other stage guitarists boost their amplification for breaks?
Edited by - jwing on 01/27/2011 15:54:47
robatsu - Posted - 01/27/2011: 16:47:30
quote:
Originally posted by jwing
[Do other stage guitarists boost their amplification for breaks?
Absolutely. And if you are playing purely acoustic into a mike, you lean into it.
Guitar-Gord - Posted - 01/28/2011: 21:53:17
Best advice I ever got from a teacher to learn lightness of touch is to fret a single note with your left hand 1st finger, pluck it, then gradually reduce tension in that 1st finger until the note dies. Keep doing this until you find that point of diminishing returns (just before the note dies, it loses a little volume). Internalize that tension through repetition, with each finger in a fixed position. Then try doing it with a scale, move the scale up and down the fret board (you need even less tension in the upper reaches) and so on. Eventually, it will become habit. Even after doing this for 20 years, I still do this exercise on occasion to check myself. And it's different for each instrument. But I think you'll find that this isn't as hard as I've made it sound, and will reward you pretty quick.
bazzer - Posted - 01/29/2011: 02:52:39
after reading all the info so far regarding lightness of touch,i've been trying to do this for the last few days and apart from making me more fluid it relieves the pain of athritus in both my thumbs.great advice IMO.
dem pickers - Posted - 01/29/2011: 04:51:43
one bit of advice I haven't seen posted yet. Make sure your guitar is set up to its best potential. My beloved Guild is going under the knife this Tuesday to drop the action up the neck. I recently bought a Blueridge for a backup that was set up amazingly well at the shop I bought it from. It automatically increased my speed and lightened my touch while still maintaining a booming voice. I know my Guild has the potential for the same results. I've played the Guild for the last 15 or so years as it is thinking I could learn to play through the action for the sake of tone ( Hard headed). The Guild is a good enough guitar to handle a tweaking and still have that rich tone ( I'm counting on it). Neither one of these guitars will be able to cut through a full blown bluegrass jam but for practice purposes the Blueridge has advanced my playing just by having a very good set up. I also at times try to practice at an exagerrated volume so when I practice at a normal volume I might be able to pick up some right hand volume. Others mileage may vary.
Keithflatt - Posted - 02/27/2011: 09:39:08
I was at A Steve Kaufman workshop & he stated that he jammed with Tony Rice or witnessed a jam he was in and said he could barely hear him. You see Tony uses a very hot Mike and many of these great pickers as well, thus Kaufmans theory on the trebly yellow pick he used, he said " better to be heard than seen." I myself have touble with control using that yellow pick, but as a matter of fact I have trouble with any pick, one of the hardest things I've ever attempted & been at it over 15 yrs.
I was a a jam onetime at an indoor festival with about a dz musicians and one of the guitar pickers breaks cut through so nicely & after I asked him what pick he was using & sure enough the little yellow one.
robatsu - Posted - 02/27/2011: 22:18:03
Recently, I've been going back to good old fender medium teardrop picks for playing in jams and such. They really do give a lot more volume. I'm not sure if they are harder to control or just that the very crisp/clear trebly sound simply makes your mistakes more audible.
larry - Posted - 02/27/2011: 23:30:22
Delboy,
One thing I can tell you is that the well-known players we all know have the tone in their hands. Tony Rice could play a "Kay' model guitar and still sound like Tony Rice. Then again, we could play the same licks on his Santa Cruz or Martin and still sound like us! It's all about experience and technique. Carlos Santana could play a cheap Asian import and still blow you away! It's in their 'hands!!!'
The sound you want will only come with practice and listening to your 'ear'. I still listen to Tony and Doc's records and try to 'cop' their licks. I know at the end of the day it's still going to be "my interpretation." So don't over-analyze it. Don't set your bar too high.
Go at it in stages. You'll get there. It just takes time and patience!
Edited by - larry on 02/27/2011 23:45:31
forksken - Posted - 03/05/2011: 20:01:44
trying to play loud will definatly lead to some bad habits when it comes to speed and pressing too hard on the strings. I found myself developing this problem in band situations and was lucky enough to get a hold of a fender amp can and a lr bags in guitar mic. Although the amp does not have great tone it aloows me and others to hearmy guitar better so I don't have to play so hard and loud. has improved my technique quite abit.
forksken - Posted - 03/05/2011: 20:02:36
I want to upgrade to better acoustic amp this year.
thehurricane - Posted - 03/05/2011: 20:42:40
Okay, Delboy, I have read through all the replies here and all make excellent points. One thing not mentioned, and I am sure I am not the only one that experiences this, but sometimes when the notes aren't clean and I am pressing into the fretboard way too hard, I have noticed that my 'finger position' is off just a bit. Instead of the string being centered on the calloused pad of a finger, it may be off to the side slightly. It is usually one or two fingers, not all of them. When I correct this, the notes sound cleaner and I am not pressing nearly as hard to make them. Some days I play easier and sound better than other days. I have noticed that this is normally the reason. Just a suggestion, something you might try, along with thumb position. Hope it helps!
slowhand - Posted - 03/06/2011: 21:13:53
There's one piece of advice no one's mentioned, probably because it's one of the fundamentals that beginners are taught, and that is to fret a note as closely as possible behind the fret. When you do that, you can get a clean sound with much less pressure than, say, fretting a half inch behind the fret. I've known for years that you're supposed to do that, but I've been really lazy about actually doing it. It's only been relatively recently, as I've gotten faster and have been trying to squeeze out even more speed, that I've come to appreciate how much of a difference it can make. I've long had a tendency when fretting notes at the third fret with my ring finger to not stretch it enough to get my finger down right behind the fret. At slower speeds, it doesn't make much of a difference, but for me, at 120 BPM or above, it makes a big difference. I was practicing one day playing one lick over and over really fast, and I couldn't figure out why the note on the B string at the third fret was always sounding a little muffled and I was having trouble getting it to sound clean. I started stretching my ring finger a little more an fretting the note right behind the fret, and the problem disappeared immediately. Now I regret all those years of careless playing that I have to wipe out of my muscle memory, and replace with that one fundamental technique that pretty much any beginner knows.
gtrknob - Posted - 03/07/2011: 05:52:12
Slowhand,
Great point......I have this same problem and I'm trying to correct it also.
