ahelmes71 - Posted - 01/25/2011:  04:32:34

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This is kind of a tongue-in-cheek, but still serious, query:

I am planning to get a "nice" acoustic later this year. I am working through the Kaufman book diligently.

In the past I've played gigs with some small acoustic duos, and incorporated flatpicking as well as fingerstyle. Accordingly, I was kind of leaning toward a Taylor EC model since those are supposed to be good for fingerstyle and already have built-in amplication systems.

However, I've gathered that Martins are the generally gold standard. I'd certainly love to have one of each, but due to financial constraints I just can't.

Will I get weird looks at small bluegrass jams and such if I show up with the Taylor cutaway versus the old stand-by Martin?

For me this is a matter of getting the best tool for what I want to do, so ultimately I'll be my own judge there, but I was just curious if you lose some street cred at bluegrass jams if you show up with a college-boy Dave Matthews Taylor. ;)

delboy - Posted - 01/25/2011:  04:56:54

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Taylor is currently top of my list. I love the sound that Dan Crary gets - it seems to have more cut and sparkle than a lot of other guitars. Before anyone jumps on that statement as meaning I don't like the sound of other guitars - I think Tony Rice, Bryan Sutton, Clarence White etc all get equally wonderful sounds out of their axes. I also think if any one of them picked up my old laminated top Yamaha they'd still get an amazing sound out of it. But that Taylor sound is probably my favourite and maybe if I still feel the same in five years (when fingers crossed I have some dosh) I reckon as I might even buy one :-) Even if it is just a 110.

As regards what other people think - who cares? If I was jamming with folk who looked down on me because of my guitar I wouldn't care to be jamming with them anyway. Now, if they looked down on me because of my playing that's a different matter...

Derek

jwing - Posted - 01/25/2011:  08:19:51

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Bluegrass jams are made up of middle-aged and older redneck men who give weird looks to all newcomers. In fact, don't even bother going to jams because porch pickers are the most critical and unwelcoming people that exist. By the way what is "street cred" and if you're going to lose some at a jam, why not just leave it in your Volvo or Prius, OK? I don't want none layin' around the house after I boot your butt out for bringing a Taylor.

And yes, you will be invited to take your Taylor out of earshot, because there are rules and one of 'em is Martin guitars only, unless you've been a pro bluegrasser since you were 10 years old and all you can afford is a Blueridge. In that case, you can stay but you must play a Martin if somebody offers you one.

If you want to know why people don't bring Taylors to jams, try sticking your head right into a tight jam circle. In concert with the fiddle, banjo, mando, and bass, the guitar fills a zone of the sonic pallet. Bring the the right guitar, regardless of brand, if you would prefer to contribute rather than detract. All Taylors that I have heard are voiced for something different than blending well in an unamplified BG jam. Dedicated BG jammers gravitate to Martin dreads because they are the least expensive guitars that consistently have that particular sound quality that works best in a bluegrass jam. Several other, more expensive makers also build it into their guitars.

Whatever guitar you bring to a jam, play in tune, and on rhythm. Be prepared to call some tunes and please help with the singing. Don't noodle in between songs. Nobody but you gives a rat's ass about what brand or model of guitar you are playing.

tomm - Posted - 01/25/2011:  08:30:19

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I agree....".as for what other people think.....who cares" Now as for hard bluegrass music one thing to keep in mind is that for years...and years those before us have run the gauntlet on what instruments work best. This is true for all type's of music. I agree Martin is a bluegrass tradition if you will 'cause quite frankly in "the day" they really didn't have any competition, now, it's bluegrass...?....well it's Martin. Not necessarily the case. There are allot of good dreadnoughts out there now that will stand along side a Martin. In my opinion Taylor is not one of them. Obviously in those who play bluegrass for serious fun or preform for a living...that is also the case. I have played a few Taylors and they are not "aggressive" enough if you will. PLEASE...I'm am not cutting down Taylor's, they make a really good guitar. I'm just saying if they had that aggressive, in your face attack it takes for a good bluegrass guitar, you would see them used.
If I may suggest something to consider, if you want a guitar to play not only bluegrass but a great finger style guitar, shop around for some mahogany bodied dreadnoughts.
OK, now for the I figured as much , yes I play Martin's. This being the case I can tell you a D-18, such as the V model I play is a great finger style guitar.
Anyway, my point is, if you want to kill two birds with one stone look at that option. I'm talking material, not brand. I do really think if your serious about bluegrass and progresses you won't stay happy with a Taylor.

DaddyJ - Posted - 01/25/2011:  09:15:54

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I was checking out a Breedlove mandolin recently that was just incredible but I had the same thoughts. It sounded great but had a somewhat non-traditional look. How would people perceive me if I showed up to a jam with that thing? More importantly, if I’m backing up my son in a contest, the last thing I want to do is draw attention away from him with my “strange” mandolin, or worse, negatively influence the judges in some way. You just don’t know what little prejudices other people may have or how influential they will be, especially when those people are in a position to judge you. Plus, if he doesn’t place where we think he should, we’d be wondering how much that had to do with it instead of analyzing the performance and figuring out where it could improve. This may seem silly to some, but hang around the Martin booth at a festival sometime and listen to what some of the old-timers have to say about “other” guitars. There’s a definite prejudice there.

Basically it comes down to this: The fact that you're asking the question means you're somewhat sensitive to this sort of thing. Just be aware that if you decide to go the Taylor route, there will be some doubting and second guessing that comes along with it in certain situations, and you may give up some projection in order to get the versatility you're looking for. Is that worth it to you to have the guitar that you really want? Only you can decide that.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 01/25/2011:  11:29:16

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A Bluegrass guitar is a dreadnought size / shape guitar, not an auditorium cutaway. No other size / shape has the punch,volume and ringing tonal qualities the the music calls for. Taylor makes fine instruments. They make good dreadnought size / shape guitars. If you prefer a Taylor try one of those out. If funding is a problem either wait til it's not or start looking at imported guitars. There are several affordable solid wood body models available. Used guitars can also be found that are of good quality and are less expensive than new ones.
I finger pick and flat pick my guitars and other than my archtop models they all sound fine. That is a matter of setup and strings W/ or w/o finger picks.
I am a crotchety old fart that plays a Martin, among other makers. I don't care what anybody plays ... as long as they can PLAY. THere are always snobs no matter what it is you are doing. I am always willing to be helpful and polite to those trying to learn to play. If they wander into a jam that is to advanced for their abilities most folks are polite until someone becomes musically disruptive. THen .. well you get the picture. The right jam is the one where you are playing at the top edge of your abilities, pushing yourself but not slowing down those around you.
If I could only get one guitar it would be a solid wood dreadnought acoustic w/ quality on board electronics . IMHO that is the best all around choice.
Play long and hard.... R/

ahelmes71 - Posted - 01/25/2011:  13:11:17

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Thanks for all the great input folks.

I guess I am not so much "sensitive" to what others think, as I am aware there is always "the right tool for the particular job" and I also respect tradition.

After reading the posts, I may give the Martin D-18 or D-28 a more serious consideration since I think I would like to explore getting involved with some bluegrass jams.

jazzrambler - Posted - 01/25/2011:  14:31:27

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Play what you will, nobody has ever derided my Larivee. I have seen plenty of Taylors and even some Asian knock-offs. Most jams are outdoors so you don't see a lot of high dollar custom guitars. As for Breedlove's odd shape, I play a Flatiron with half the finish off the back, talk about looks!

The majority of BG pickers are there to pick not chat, most can't chat and pick at the same time so get used to stares and occasional nods and grunts. Coming into a jam circle is like any other social situation. Polite company isn't going to bust on your guitar, but will react to your attitude. Guitar players show up every so often 'flexing,' most often they've had there @ss handed to them in some other genre and have decided to relocate to Bluegrass thinking they'll shred it up and win the admiration of a bunch of dumb hicks. They are quickly dissatisfied and crawl back to electric Blues jams. Noodling is frowned upon. Singing, however is most always welcomed. The Gospel 'joyful noise' thing is taken seriously.

Maybe everyone is nicer where I go to jam, it sure ain't my 'street cred' or my looks. I have long hair and often wear my "I'm with the bass player" t-shirt. My wife gave it to me after I bought her a bass. Go have fun!

Kallesandria - Posted - 01/25/2011:  15:15:53

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Jazz Rambler, that was a fine post....everything you say makes perfect sense! A number of years ago I was at a bluegrass festival. I couldn't play a guitar lead to save my soul (still can't), but I had great fun in the parking lot picking sessions. Usually I'd just stand unobtrusively in the background, boom-chucking away to the rhythm on my cheap guitar. Nobody every complained, no one gave me dirty looks or otherwise said anything. I was obviously a beginner, but I was able to keep up with the rhythm and that's all that mattered.

The highlight of all that came one day at the end of a song when I heard a voice behind me saying, "That guitar sounds mighty nice, young lady. Just keep on doin' it!" I turned around and the look on my face must have been one of shock when I saw that the admirer was the late Charles Sawtelle of Hot Rize. He just winked and walked on, leaving me with my silly grin for probably the next half hour!

Play what you got, with conviction....if anyone has a problem with that, they're probably not worth jamming with in the first place.


Karen

MitchellB - Posted - 01/25/2011:  19:37:41

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I think the stereo-typed bluegrass instrument (Only a Gibson or Martin is good enough) is a thing of the past. There are so many great instruments and instrument makers out there today that it are more about the SOUND than the name on the headstock now. It was just that years ago, Gibson and Martin were about the only commercially available acoustic instruments that had the power and tone to be considered professional quality bluegrass instruments. Pretty soon folks just came to assume if someone shows up with a Gibson or Martin, they were serious about their music and demanded the best instrument available. You just did not see very many touring bluegrass musicians playing anything else in the beginning, because there wasn’t much of anything else to choose from. All that started to change in the 60s and 70s. I think bluegrass music has always been more about the SOUND and the TALENT more so than stage gimmicks, brand names and celebrity stars. I think that simple honesty is one of the many reasons it has lasted so long. Short answer, buy the best sounding guitar you can afford and forget about whose name is on it. Test drive as many as you can find before you lay down your money.

MapleNuts - Posted - 01/25/2011:  19:44:11

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Does it really matter if I drive a Prius? :-) and I do.
Never did care what people thought I drove or what guitar I played.
It sounds good, nobody ever complained, and I always do play my best and try to have fun.
That is the whole point. Isn't it?

Pick like you never picked before
Sing like your life depended on it.
But most of all have fun.

Steven

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Edited by - MapleNuts on 01/25/2011 19:50:09

tomm - Posted - 01/26/2011:  04:28:28

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Ed..really good observation as always and food for thought for those who are uncertain of what to expect or maybe even how their frame of mind should be when trying it out..
ahelmes, if your narrowing down to a Martin and want a guitar that attacks for bluegrass yet is a really good finger style guitar try the 18 first. It (usually) will have a much warmer melodic tone. But certainly look around. There are some really good mahogany bodied dreadnoughts out there. You certainly don"t have to play a Martin to be a bluegrass player.

jwing - Posted - 01/26/2011:  05:09:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by ahelmes71


After reading the posts, I may give the Martin D-18 or D-28 a more serious consideration since I think I would like to explore getting involved with some bluegrass jams.

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I encourage you to get jamming regardless of what kind of guitar you have now, because IT DOESN'T MATTER. After you've been jamming awhile, you'll have a better idea of what tool you want for that job.

bfloyd6969 - Posted - 01/26/2011:  05:29:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by jwing
I encourage you to get jamming regardless of what kind of guitar you have now, because IT DOESN'T MATTER. After you've been jamming awhile, you'll have a better idea of what tool you want for that job.

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Agreed!!

tomm - Posted - 01/26/2011:  08:27:11

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I agree 100% with everything said, especially regardless of what you play just get to playing but on the other hand don't totally agree. He seems to know exactly what the needs of his guitar will be and plans on buying a" "nice" guitar, just a matter of getting the best tool for what I want". Not only that, but appears to have been playing for awhile. Now that being the case, sounds like all the bases are covered, and is not intending to go buy a cheap guitar to test the waters. If I interpreted the question right (and maybe I didn't) this is more about wanting to hear folk's experience with different tone woods, brands and what have you in order to hopefully make the right (rather expensive) purchase first time around. If I'm right....again try a mahogany bodied dreadnought.

SLKmartin - Posted - 01/26/2011:  09:50:04

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Hi, Guys I do love own and play Martin D-18. The Taylor that grabbed me was a 914 / rose wood , bound neck, cut away. great feel and sound .....very exspensive. I will get one some day/ (used)........ until then...............

Pickerwannbee - Posted - 01/26/2011:  14:32:53

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Amen folks Amen!!! As someone said, take your guitar whatever the brand, play in tune, in time, blend in with everyone else so as not to seem as though you are trying to override everyone else and it won't matter a hoot what brand you are playing. I've played my Yamaha FG300 for 35 years and yes, I do get some funny looks when I bring it out but after about a half a song I'm getting admiring looks.

Keep them finger tough and keep a playin

Gottasmilealot - Posted - 01/30/2011:  19:02:13

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Sometimes the people giving the looks and remarks at a jam are the problem. They're a legend in their own mind. A guitar's sound is probably based on the the guitar itself more so than the brand. There are disappointing expensive guitars out there, and there are exceptional reasonably priced guitars. Shop and compare, then play what you like rather than what some others feel you should play. You'll notice a difference between guitars of the same model and brand. Some have it, some don't. Enjoy the hunt!

thehurricane - Posted - 03/14/2011:  13:58:37

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I agree with just about what everybody said, but I really agree with Ed's(jazzrambler) post. Mainly 'cause I can identify with it! Shoot, I got an Ibanez cutaway that I bring out. It is kinda my camp guitar. Down here, they aint a big bluegrass pickin population, so peer pressure is non existant. But your playing will make the difference!

Humbled - Posted - 03/23/2011:  05:53:35

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Occasionally I'll get some disparaging comment about my Taylor, yet when that happens I threaten to get out my fiddle. At this point I'll generally hear, "It's okay! I'm sorry. Didn't mean it. Please...just play your guitar...."

tomm - Posted - 03/23/2011:  11:23:59

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I kinda like Kieth's observation and was kinda thinking the same thing. I really don't think I've seen a good GUITAR player, and musician that looks down on others for any reason much less the kind of guitar they play. Most folks I've seen that are offended or the ofendees are usually the ones off the mark so to speak.

jwing - Posted - 03/23/2011:  14:42:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by MapleNuts

Does it really matter if I drive a Prius? :-) and I do.
Never did care what people thought I drove or what guitar I played.

Steven

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Oh yeah, it matters if you want to maintain your street cred. You better drive to the jam in a full-size, 8-cylinder, gas-guzzling, pick-up truck, and that truck better have an American brand. Four-wheel drive only, if you are in a snowy area. However, in Florida or other flat, warm places, driving a four-wheel drive is considered over-compensation, indicating that you are not manly enough to be totin' a Martin dread and you'd be better off playin' your SquierStrat cranked to 11 when your Mom is at the grocery store.

You may not care what people think, but us guys in the jam circle don't like people who don't care about what we don't like.

Seriously - Thanks for driving a Prius.

taylor96 - Posted - 04/03/2011:  10:58:34

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get your taylor, take it to a jam and play the hell out of it.. If someone complains, it probably not a jam you want to stay in anyway.. I see more and more Taylors at Festival jams now than ever before.. What I sometimes do if someone chides me about not having a martin is to wait till they are playing and then get behind them and quietly ask if they are playing as you can't hear their martin.. ( its best if this is a friend or at least someone you know well tho)

Have fun play what you want

eddorci - Posted - 04/08/2011:  12:47:51

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If Tony Rice showed up playing some piece of crap guitar do you think people wouldn't want to jam with him????

jwing - Posted - 04/08/2011:  18:43:13

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quote:

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Originally posted by ahelmes71



Will I get weird looks at small bluegrass jams and such if I show up with the Taylor cutaway versus the old stand-by Martin?



For me this is a matter of getting the best tool for what I want to do, so ultimately I'll be my own judge there, but I was just curious if you lose some street cred at bluegrass jams if you show up with a college-boy Dave Matthews Taylor. ;)

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 Hey eddorci: If Tony Rice showed up to our jam he'd get some weird looks regardless of what guitar he was carrying. And hell, yeah, if he was playing a college-boy Dave Matthews Taylor, he would definitely lose street cred. And we would say mean things and giggle when he left. We're a bunch of middle-age farts who can't improvise our way through Bile Em Cabbage, but we sure as death and taxes know how to maintain our cred, which is why we don't 'low no Taylor playin' 'round heah.

I gotta run over to the banjo hangout now to find out which banjos we need to scorn. I know some of you are already itchin' to write, "All of them," but I just beat you to it.

DaddyJ - Posted - 04/08/2011:  21:20:43

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eddorci - Posted - 04/09/2011:  08:39:10

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Do Tony's eyes look like he's on something in that picture?

majorbanjo - Posted - 04/19/2011:  14:48:43

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What's a Taylor?....

dmiller - Posted - 04/20/2011:  01:33:41

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Shucks - - - guitars are guitars.   Regardless of the brand, you get some good ones and some bad ones.  

I've got a Martin D-35 that has all the tone/ volume/ playability/ etc.,  that anyone would want in a guitar.

Then a friend of mine picked up a cheap Sigma guitar from a pawnshop for 100 bucks that sounded almost as good as my Martin.

Anyone who judges guitars by the name on the peghead rather than the sound (etc.),  needs a checkup from the neck up.

It's not the name on the guitar that makes the instrument.  It's what it is - - each and every one.