I'm continuing to work through the first Steven Kaufman book, and I have most of the basic versions of tunes down, some of the intermediate, not ready for the expert versions yet.

But looking ahead, I begin to question if I am really "learning" flatpicking by this approach, or am I just getting some of the techniques under my belt along with a handful of memorized arrangements that I'll cling to like a drowning man when I eventually get up the nerve to jam with somebody? I know I don't have the skills at this stage to dish out cycle after cycle of improvised solos on these fiddle tunes...when/how do you ever get to that stage?

Or do most of you just learn fiddle tunes, play through your part, then back off and let one of the other instruments play? Should I be learning 4 or 5 versions of each fiddle tune so I can play something unique when my time comes around again?

I'm confused when I read about people "jamming for two or three hours" at a time...I bet if you add the sum total of what I've got under my belt, it's barely 12 minutes of music!

Andy

quote:

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Originally posted by ahelmes71
But looking ahead, I begin to question if I am really "learning" flatpicking by this approach, or am I just getting some of the techniques under my belt along with a handful of memorized arrangements that I'll cling to like a drowning man when I eventually get up the nerve to jam with somebody? I know I don't have the skills at this stage to dish out cycle after cycle of improvised solos on these fiddle tunes...when/how do you ever get to that stage?

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A great and important question about going from tunes to improvisation. I agree with much of what slowhand has said. Here's my take on the subject.

I believe you need a couple of things, and one of those involves learning tunes. Learning tunes in major keys, and learning licks/runs/embellishments (not primarily the melody) within those tunes will help you start to improvise in a jam. You can use some of those licks/runs/embellishments in other songs in similar keys. Kaufman probably has the first example in the book stick very close to the melody; the 2nd probably has a number of lick/runs/embellishments, and the 3rd is probably very much decorated with “hot licks” & other things. In that, you can see the progression I’m trying to discuss.

On the other hand, you also need to know how to play your instrument, doing things that don’t involve primarily playing a melody. Examples would be learning chords, scales & patterns, different types of chords, scales up the neck, strum patterns, picking patterns, etc. etc. These things will also give you a good foundation for improvisation.

I have a lady friend whom I play fiddle with occasionally. She learns from a teacher, and he ONLY teaches her fiddle tunes. So she knows, like 50 or so fiddle tunes, but in a jam can only play those tunes, and not very well. I know only about a dozen tunes on fiddle, but play much better, because I’ve learned slurs, double-stops, different bowing patterns, vibrato, etc. So in a jam, if we don’t know a tune, she’ll have to sit there with her fiddle in her lap, but I’m able to play some scale notes, double stops, chops, etc., behind the melody/singer, and take a (probably weak) break when I get the nod. That is an example of ONLY learning tunes, as you’ve pretty much guessed already. She knows how to play many fiddle tunes, but not how to play her fiddle. Make sense?

So I believe you need a combination of both. Don’t totally discount either tunes or learning techniques. When I get tired of one, I go and practice stuff on the other. And when I want to learn a tune, I try to find one that will have skills or licks/runs/embellishments that I will be able to easily transfer to other songs. Sorry so long winded, but this is a deep subject, and I know some others, some of them teachers, will chime in with other better advice. Hope that helps some.

When in doubt, just learn a tune you enjoy and be happy.

Andy,
You are on the right track with the SK Book. I think Steve says you should have 30+ under you belt for a good start. I would advise you to learn the beginner tunes perfectly , then learn the intermediate version as a second way of playing the same tume. In a jam, you will many oportunities to have a second go at a song. When you first start jamming, expect to be a little nervous. It is very natural, and if you have your basic version solid, you will be more inclined to play a good tune up to speed. Next time around, try the intermediate, if you have a 3rd shot, try the A of the intermediate and end on the B of the basic. I still enjoy learning as many as 5 versions of a tune to see how someone else might aproach a song. Then I can find what best fits my hands and ears to develop my version. Work with a metronome and work the basic versions up to speed and perfectly, you can't go wrong.
Mike

If your primary focus is "jamming with others," like you seemed to indicate in the OP, then just learning tunes won't necessarily cut it, IMHO. What will you do when they're playing tunes you don't know? A tune-only approach will probably result in the experience of the lady fiddler I mentioned above.

On the other hand, if Steve Kaufman came and sat in on your jam, and someone called a tune he didn't know, he'd be able to play throughout and take a break anyway. So it's not all about just learning specific tunes, in my opinion. Not trying to be contrary here.

Or, You could start writing your own tunes and stand and deliver as very few intermediate flatpickers do, as they study being clones . WRITE MUSIC IT BECOMES YOUR LANGUAGE, copy others you just dont develope or you end up not posting anything. Be careful whos advice you heed. I thought Austin Mike made sense

Edited by - SLKmartin on 08/10/2010 16:10:21

Steve, why is it that every time you post, you need to take swipes at people and put them down? You just hijacked this thread so you could put people down in your usual bitter spirit. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, as you've done it so many time before. It's too bad that you've alienated just about everyone who visits this site regularly, and noone will respond to you or rate your music, you had to change your profile name 3 times now, hoping people would forget what you've done in the past, etc. etc. But that's no reason to keep trolling threads and putting people down with your negative comments.

I assume the "not posting anything" remark was directed at me. If I wanted to post crappy singer-songwriter tunes, I could easily do that. But this is a flatpicking site, and I don't feel good enough yet on my flatpicking skills to have something to contribute. Your immature, trollish behavior is getting tiresome. Go bother some other people and give us a break.

Stand and Deliver . I dont swipe at you I never mentioned you . This not About You. If you dont post or post Is not my Affair. If you dont like me or some other problem contact me privatly and we can handel that in private like real men other wise" Just Ignore Me". Cant play Go Away. See my latest "Crappy Singer Song Writer Tune" that I wrote produced and Stand Behind, @

The song he posted is talking all about being a great banjo player, but there is no banjo break in the song?

Oh well thats no good then. I missed the rules on writing /Original songs

Edited by - SLKmartin on 08/10/2010 16:13:21

quote:

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Originally posted by ahelmes71

The song he posted is talking all about being a great banjo player, but there is no banjo break in the song?

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It is frustrating to try to jam with someone that has not developed skills except playing memorized arrangements out of a book. You need to do more to successfully jam.

1) Until you are a little more experienced at jamming, I recommend that you start learning two-chord, vocal song standards. You can find a list at drbanjo.com.

2) Practice singing while you play basic, boom-chuck rhythm on your guitar. Don't even think about lead playing until you can sing and play rhythm for several songs. While you are doing this, LISTEN. I repeat, LISTEN! You will develop an ear for when chords change and what they change to. It's a lot easier to start this development when there are only two chords. Later, add three-chord songs.

3) Do not skip 2). I don't care how bad you think you sing. The singing will help your guitar playing, trust me. Even on non-vocal tunes, you should hum the tune when you are learning to play it. Oh, and like it or not, the Americana/bluegrass world generally assumes that the guitar player sings. Plus, it's fun. Also, you will be playing rhythm throughout all the singing and for every other instrument's break. Might as well get good at it. And another thing, it is perfectly acceptable for the guitar player to NOT play breaks in a jam. The guitar is not well-suited to play unamplified lead and the music is not well-suited to be played without a rhythm guitar. Finally, if you happen to be in an old time jam, they often don't even want the guitar to play a break; they just want rhythm.

4) If you follow my advice in 2) and 3), you will be able to play along with most popular jam songs, even if you have never heard them before. That's because you will have developed your ear to hear the chords and the chord changes.

5) Practice every song you learn in different keys. Know how to transpose and know how to use your capo. When other player call tunes, they often pick a different key than our friend SK wrote out.

6) When you get the hang of playing with other people, your skills will sharpen up to the point that you can call a fiddle tune and play some lead. By then, you will know how to practice so that your timing is impeccable, and your phrasing is understandable to other musicians who are trying to keep in the beat. This is a good time to try out the SK arrangements that you know. Hopefully, at this stage you will understand what you are playing rather than playing by rote.

7) Don't worry about playing something unique every turn you get. Just keep it going. You will eventually want to start improvising, but not yet. The other musicians probably won't notice that you are playing the same thing, and even if they do, they will be either: envious of your skills, or remembering that they were once at that stage, too. Also, rhythm is the place you should be learning variations. it keeps the tune from getting boring and even a low-level guitarist can enhance the breaks of other people (they will appreciate that) and drive the jam in various musical directions.

8) You are singing some songs at the jam, that is an ORDER! Everybody SHOULD sing; guitar players MUST sing; and if that is not the case at your jam, you will be the superstar hero if you do.

9) AT LAST, you are ready to start improvising. When a song that you have not learned is called, LISTEN! for the first few rounds. Get the chord changes down, then when it is your turn, simply play notes in the appropriate scale in about the same pattern as the words (Again, this exercise is MUCH easier on songs with words). It won't matter if you don't play the exact melody as long as you are playing within the correct scale. Eventually, your improvising will become more sophisticated. But you gotta take those baby steps first and not be afraid to hit a few klinkers.

10) A last word of advice: Keep working on the SK arrangements, BUT learn how to play rhythm for a round, then switch to lead, then back to rhythm - all without stopping, stuttering, delaying, or changing tempo. THAT is the thing that most rote solo players usually are the worst at.

Edited by - jwing on 08/10/2010 16:48:43

Thanks for that highly detailed post, jwing. There is a lot of good stuff to think about there.

Andy

NOT intended as a hi-jack but along the same line. The suggestions to focus more on backup than lead makes sense to me. Any suggestions on book to facilitate same??
AND, while I am realtively satisfied with my progress playing, I am...weak in the theory/music area. Any suggestions for accomplishing this end. It seems...difficult (or maybe just lazy) to deal with this.
AND, AND thanx for the time and trouble!

I do like what has been suggested by everyone here, goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat. My added two cents worth would be to learn a bit of theory especially scales and improvisation> Also listen to other players playing songs you are good at or familiar with and try to learn a bit of them. this is where licks and such come to be a part of your repetoire. Listen to those who seem to be way out of your league, it makes one try harder...

skyraider:

There are lots of good instructional books available. You should study the descriptions and try to match best what you are looking for.

My favorite for backup guitar is "Flatpicking Essentials, Volume 1: Rhythm, Bass Runs & Fill Licks."

flatpickingmercantile.com/Merc...y_Code=01

I like how the author guides the student to an understanding of the material rather than simply presenting patterns and licks to memorize.

As for theory, my question is what are you after? "Flatpicking Essentials, Volume 1" will give you all the theory you need to understand the material it presents and from there play your own improvistions. For basic jamming it's helpful to know the major scale and the I, IV, V, and vi(minor) chords in the keys of G and C. Capo up to the second fret and you've got A and D as well. That's all the theory I've ever heard at a jam. The rest of jamming is mostly using your ability of having your ears tell your hands what to do. That takes a lot of practice.

Like forksken says - learn scales and LISTEN.

Edited by - jwing on 08/11/2010 10:05:21

There is a simple little exercize you can try that helps separate "chords" from "runs''. Instead of playing a full chord try a boom chuck rythum and finger just two notes of the chord "Double Stop" . This is not a power chord its a Chord fingering that opens up the fingerboard for easily playing a scale. Finger a G chord, Remove your ring finger from the high e string and place that finger on the 3rd fret second or b string. Strum..., the result is a big sounding double stop and your ring finger is playing the D note readdy to run down D, C,B,A, G. ending on the open G note on the 3rd or G string. finally end with a strum full G chord. Now play a G run up from the bass string. See................... the double stop D/C allows the scale to be played while still suggesting the G chord and gives you another finger to work with..................Good luck.................Steve

GOOD STUFF GUYS.....Thank you !

What the heck, as long as we're throwing opinions.........Mine is that spending your time learning certain stuff should be (maybe) limited to stuff you really like....stuff that catches your ear. Even then the licks, phrasing and so on should be stored if you will separately as part of your arsenal, or "bag of tricks" . I like allot of what Forksken said.
I know a bunch of excellent classical musicians that basically can't play much a lick without sheet music in front of them. Learning songs (for at least myself) tnds to teach you a melody or so on that can't be strayed to far from. "Breaking them down" as the expression goes and storing licks, phrases, runs etc. can be used everywhere and with the same practice as learning songs, can be used in other songs you don't know (yet), improvising, and writing matrial.
I've said this once before on here. I was talking with Cody Kilby one time and he told me thought the best type of teaching tool out there was stuff like "Fretboard Roadmaps.
Someone else mentioned "double stops", a technique used regularly on the mandolin. I use this technique allot being the only guitar playing allot of the time. It allows you to "run or phrase with three or four fingers and still keep a full sound. It's a combination rhythm, cross/flat picking and mandolin double stops. Many use it and can probably explain it easier than I just attempted.

This is all good stuff. I don’t have a lot to add in terms of techniques and such because I’m kind of at the same level myself, and I’m playing more mandolin lately anyway since my son is handling the guitar end of things. I will say that, in my limited experience, there is no substitute for the following three things:

Practice
By practice I don’t just mean sitting around playing the same old fiddle tunes or jamming by yourself on stuff you already know. That’s a good way to build up calluses but you won’t learn much. You need to develop a specific, realistic, goal-oriented practice routine and stick to it. It really helps to have a good teacher but I realize that’s not always an option. This is the practice routine my son and I are using:
1. Warm-up exercises
2. Scales
3. Barre chords (He HATES barre chords!!! This is usually the most painful part of the practice)
4. Mel Bay and other assigned homework
5. Fiddle Tunes – contest arrangements, recital pieces
6. Fun time!!! Additional tunes of your choice, jamming, play along with Brad Davis Flatpick Jams, etc.
I always tell him, the quicker you get through the first five parts the more time you have for the fun stuff. You also need to be flexible. There are certain days where, just based on the mood he’s in, we skip right to #6 and don’t even mess with the hard/boring stuff. You need those days every once in a while. You also need to try hard to stay out of a rut. If you feel yourself plateauing, mix things up.

Listen
Fill your head with the best flatpicking/bluegrass music you can get your hands on, just saturate yourself with it. A lot of times I’ll quiz my son (and myself) on fiddle tunes, trying to get him to name the tune just from the melody, which isn’t always as easy as it sounds. Can you tell Bill Cheatum from Forked Deer from Cattle in the Cane from Big Mon? Makes him really pay attention to the songs. Now that he’s been playing for a while and he’s really starting to learn the instrument, that stuff that he’s been listening to (that’s been floating around in his head all this time) is starting to bubble up to the surface and come out in his playing. Sometimes he’ll play a lick that neither one of us knows where it came from, but we’ve heard it on some cd somewhere. Those are fun moments.

Play with other people
I saved the best for last. I don’t care how good (or bad) you think you are, until you play with someone else it’s all an exercise. Music is a language. How can you expect to learn the fine art of conversation if you only talk to yourself? Most people (myself included) feel like they have to be at a certain level before they can get out there and jam. That’s ridiculous. That’s like expecting a toddler to learn how to talk in isolation. The trick is finding a jam that will welcome you and put up with your two-year-old grammar. Can’t find a jam? There’s always someone out there who wants to play. Even if it’s just you and one other guy that’s better than being by yourself.

Daddy J Iliked that..................Steve.

Thanx to ALL for taking the time to respond.....very helpful!
OK Jwing, I bought the book as it looked.....solid as did the other editions in the series...makes sense.
DaddyJ...sound advice..some I do...Some I will have to do better at.
SLK thanx for explaining the double stop thing.

Hi Andy

You've got a lot of good tips here. I'll pitch in my two cents by telling you how I like to structure my practice.

I like to think of my practice like a game of checkers, just moving one piece forward at a time. Learning from books can be very useful but it is equally so - perhaps more - to learn things from ear and to nurture and develop your musical intuition, ie. improvisational skills, right from the get go.

I might warm up by doing some technique drills in the right and left hand, usually pretty slow. Speed is not the issue when you are practicing, but you probably know that. Everybody should warm up a bit before playing, and it's just a matter of common sense to be efficient about it and kill two birds with one stone by having your warm ups be technique drills. The two books I am using for warm ups are Gypsy Picking, which is a book dedicated to the gypsy jazz technique but is EXTREMELY useful for anyone playing a guitar IMHO. The second is called Jazz Guitar Technique and it deals mainly with economy of left hand fingering.

After that I'll do a little reading (yes, music reading) from two books. They are both published by Berklee College of Music press (I'm a student there). The first is a book of only reading studies, and the second is a book of melodic rhythms with short etudes to put them into practice. Reading might not be important to you, and that's no big deal. It can help you to think more musically and visualize your instrument in a new and useful way. Ultimately, it's all up to you to decide what your priorities are.

Next I'll typically do some "theory", basically just some scales and arpeggios. If you don't know what these are, there are roughly 17 trillion sources on the web where you can find out. For straight ahead roots music (early jazz, bluegrass, old-time, etc.), you don't need to know that much. Major, minor, and dominant sounds in addition to pentatonic and blues sounds and you're pretty much set.

After reading, I'll usually work on a "new tune". Sometimes I learn the tune from a book and other times I will transcribe a tune from a record and yet other times I will learn a tune from a friend. The one thing I can say is that if you are using a book to learn tunes that you plan on playing all the time is learn it as fast as you can and close the book. Otherwise, you might end up thinking more from the page than with your musical mind...one more hurdle none of us needs, right? Instead of learning a "beginner", "intermediate", and "expert" version for every tune, try to compose your own solos and make sure you like them. Dig in and spend time on it. Sure, you might have to go the SK route for now, but you'll be amazed at how quickly you learn the "lay of the land" when it comes to fiddle tunes. That is, there is a fairly limited melodic vocabulary and you simply don't need to know that much to start creating things on your own.

After that, I'll typically work on an "old tune", just to keep fresh. I'll alternate that usually everyday.

After that, I just play. Often times, that is improvising over a rhythm tape I make for myself, or playing rhythm along with one of my favorite records or whatever. The point of it is I just want to have fun.

To close, I'll use one more tired analogy you might not have heard. In weight training, we are strongly cautioned against favoring a certain muscle or muscle group, as this sets up an imbalance in our muscular system and ultimately can lead to injury. Music is very much the same way...balance your practice like you would a workout. Come up with a system that works for you, and you'll see results. If you have any questions about anything I'm happy to help if I can. cdavis2@berklee.net

Tons of good advice in this thread and some earlier threads. I hate to be redundant (again...ha ha.) I also don't have time to search the archives, so here's my two cents worth...again:

Due to physiology, 10 minutes of practice in the morning is worth 30 in the evening. The chemicals that record muscle memory are depleted during the day and recharged as you sleep. Try it, you will be amazed. Get up a half hour early and do your drills while having your coffee. It is also a great way to set the tone of your day.

Play through your mistakes. If you stop and restart every time you hit a clam, what are you really practicing? (Stop me if you've heard this one...) I played with a young hotshot sax player who muttered "SH#T!" under his breath when he hit clams while warming up. I warned him that he was practicing saying "Sh#T!" more than he realized. Sure enough, he said it into the mic on a gig, and of course, at a very bad time and place. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Play with other people as much as plausible. Even if you are 10 times better than who you are playing with, you can learn something from them or from teaching them.

Scales and modes are all well and good for practice and warmup drills, improvising is a whole different thing. Improvisation, the fancy name for playing a melodic break over an established tune, should come from the heart, through the fingers of the picker and to the ear of the listener. There should be an element of the tune readily apparent in a solo to tie it to the tune. Note just the same key and tempo, know the tune, the lyrics, the demeanor of the song. If you are taking a break on 'Down in the Willow Garden,' are you thinking of mean old Willie's misplaced aggression? His lover's shock? The horror of love gone wrong? Well, the last thing you should be thinking about is how many of the 20 licks you have been deciphering from a tab book you can try to cram into 8 bars. BTW, you are obligated to think of Mama when playing 'Will the Circle Be Unbroken.'

There is a concept in Jazz referred to as "playing through changes". Basically, this means not playing the obligatory 'G run' for 2 measures, then the 'C run' after the chord changes to C and so on. This is where a lot of players find themselves bogged down, and where a knowledge of modality can help. However, it is very easy to bog down in scalar noodling and lose direction. Good melodies drift over the changes, rather than being chained to the chord changes by a string of notes. You know the changes to the tune (hopefully) so you can anticipate them, or contrarily, drag a little. You know the tune will come back around to G eventually, be ready.

In Bluegrass, many well known melodies use chromatics but pickers rarely use them to get from one chord to another. I, myself, rarely delved into chromatics until I started really playing Gypsy Jazz. Part of the reason was I had heard a lot of players over use poorly placed chromatic licks and runs to cover for their lack of direction in a solo. Think of them as a bitter spice, never necessary but often appreciated when applied in an appropriate time, place and amount. 4-5 notes in a measure, 2-3 times per night. Oh, and you'd better be starting and ending on key notes, or it sounds like you are lost, because you are.

DO NOT OVER THINK IT!
It is called playing because it is supposed to be fun, not a debilitating intellectual and physical challenge.

Yep, there's more, but that will be enough for now. Go play!

The tip about Morning practice from Jazz Rambler Is something I've noticed ,but never really realized .....Good Advice here......Good thread.............Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by jazzrambler


Play through your mistakes. If you stop and restart every time you hit a clam, what are you really practicing? (Stop me if you've heard this one...) I played with a young hotshot sax player who muttered "SH#T!" under his breath when he hit clams while warming up. I warned him that he was practicing saying "Sh#T!" more than he realized. Sure enough, he said it into the mic on a gig, and of course, at a very bad time and place. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

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